POTM suggestions

[coathanger007]

Umm...admin...how is star rating more accurate than a poll? Only registered members (perhaps with a certain number of posts) should be able to vote and people shouldn't be able to vote multiple times for the same entry (using an anonymous browser).

[admin]

Umm...admin...how is star rating more accurate than a poll? Only registered members (perhaps with a certain number of posts) should be able to vote and people shouldn't be able to vote multiple times for the same entry (using an anonymous browser).

Hey Coathanger,

I don't see any reason why guests could not vote. The more people have the ability to vote the more accurate and true results you can get. Star system has more flexibility and shows not only what people liked but also what they didn't like. You are less likely to get same rating for two photos with this system too.

The poll is not immune against anonymous proxies either. Needless to say how annoying and long the page navigation could be when you have 30 - 50 photos or more in it. And if two photos get the same rating, what do you do - run another poll which is too repetitive and boring.

[coathanger007]

Well, from my understanding, the goal of having these competitions is to attract more active members to the forum. If guests can vote then they will always remain forum lurkers. Also, it can become a popularity contest...the more friends you know the more guests you can invite to rate your own photo. Friends are less likely to vote in this way if they had to register as members and make posts. Active forum members are less likely to be biased.

The requirement to have posts as a member before voting serves as a deterrant to people using an anonymous proxy...slows the process down.

People should also have just one entry instead of three. To prove the poll is viable you can check this out:
http://www.photoforum.com.au/showthread.php?t=3946
As you can see, it encourages much more forum participation. Members vote for the winner only. They don't vote down other people's photos. And they can't vote for their own photos.

[coathanger007]

To prove my point, steppenwolf has just rated my photo(which was clearly in the lead) 1/5 and rated all three of his (which no one even bothered voting for) 5/5...

[admin]

To prove my point, steppenwolf has just rated my photo(which was clearly in the lead) 1/5 and rated all three of his (which no one even bothered voting for) 5/5...

There is no evidence it was steppenwolf. So please no accusations. Rating is anonymous. We are all good people here playing by the rules. Your concerns and suggestions are welcome and appreciated.

Speaking about fairness I'd also like to point out that enticing members of other forums to vote for your photos here is not exactly what I call fair: http://www.gfxforum.net/showpost.php?p=14486&postcount=5
so please stay away from it or your photos could be disqualified.

[coathanger007]

Are you so sure about that? Please explain this screenshot:

http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/9190/ratingzp3.jpg

Nowhere in the rules does it say I can't ask members to rate my photo. Notice I asked people to register at the forum and even complemented it??? I'm marketing your forum for you!

[admin]

You are right about that, my mistake. I was sure I turned that option off. Thank you for bringing that to my attention. It's now off.



Nowhere in the rules does it say I can't ask members to rate my photo. Notice I asked people to register at the forum and even complemented it??? I'm marketing your forum for you!It's very nice of you to market our forum, but that doesn't buy you anything.

It's a common sense if not courtesy that doing that gives you the unfair advantage over other members who don't have their own forums. To remind you it's still POTM - photography competition where best photographers compete, not the smart webmaster of the month.

[coathanger007]

Why turn it off? What are you trying to hide? People should know if there are cheats.

I doubt there were any votes from my forum post. I also needed every possible advantage because of all the issues listed in this thread http://www.proudphotography.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1393 that made it nearly impossible for anyone other than the earliest contestants to have a chance of winning.

I haven't posted anything in my forum or any other forum asking for votes in this month's entry.

All the points raised in this thread prove that this rating system is easily manipulated. What is going to be done with steppenwolf? Are you giving me the right to rate his photos 1/5?

We need a poll.

[coffee]

Why turn it off? What are you trying to hide? People should know if there are cheats.

I doubt there were any votes from my forum post. I also needed every possible advantage because of all the issues listed in this thread http://www.proudphotography.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1393 that made it nearly impossible for anyone other than the earliest contestants to have a chance of winning.

I haven't posted anything in my forum or any other forum asking for votes in this month's entry.

All the points raised in this thread prove that this rating system is easily manipulated. What is going to be done with steppenwolf? Are you giving me the right to rate his photos 1/5?

We need a poll.

It's clear that this contest and every photo contest on the web isn't perfect, but I understand the reason to have one. First of all it's suppost to be fun and keep interest going. Second it's a good tool to increase site traffic and promote new members. Third, as the site grows, advertisers can be brought aboard to help fund the site. All good things.

I think it's clear Peter is working hard trying to keep things moving and interesting for all the members. He's also willing to work with us to make things better. That's why your comment about "What are you trying to hide", was really uncalled for coat. And I dought it will help keep the discussion alive.

Keep in mind, the contest format sometimes doesn't work in your favor, and sometimes it does. Take for instance last month. You would not have won if it weren't for the test "poll" that came about as fast as it left. I would have. I had more votes and a higher average than yours did at the end of a normal contest cycle. It was only the "poll" that gave you the win. So the format, even if it was a trial month for the poll, worked in your favor.

I agree that I've never seen anyone get a "1" before, and it is a little suspect concidering the photo, but what are you going to do. Everyone has the right to vote one time for any photo. I think most people would rather not rate a photo than give it a "1".

I don't agree that the contest should be changed in the middle of the month for any reason like it was last month, but like many contests, and for the future, it may be a good idea to throw out "1" high, and "1" low score from every photo. Might not be the best idea in the world, but it would help in keeping something like an intentional low score for the sake of bringing down the average out of the contest.

[LensBaby]

Peter, I just want to say that I like the way the POTM is, and I have fun participating, even though I do not always have perfect photos. I love it, and it is possible for somebody to accidentally click the wrong star..correct? I just want to thank you for having this contest. If everybody complains, then it might be removed, and that would just hurt the people that love it.

[ladyups]

I'm happy with the way the competition is run too. I've only entered a couple times and never expect to win but its fun to try. Might surprise myself some day! Keep up the good work, Peter.

[coathanger007]

Please don't get me wrong. The idea of having a contest is great! Almost every photo forum has one. But the admin should work with members to correct glaring faults in the system. That's what happened last month which made the scores much fairer than it would have been. What I don't understand is why we would revert back to the previous faulty system this month. And as has been shown in this thread people will take advantage of holes in the system. It's not fun when your photo is hammered by someone who has no intention of voting according to merits.

I run two popular forums myself. If any member alerted me to faults in the system that needed fixing I would respond promptly...it really doesn't take that much effort. Put yourselves in my shoes. Lets say you had a quality photo that is clearly in the lead. Then someone comes along and gives it an unjustifiable 1/5 rating. Wouldn't you complain?

Thing is, there is a viable alternative that has been tried and tested in other forums. This contest would be more fun and attract more people if it were also fair.

[admin]

I'm happy with the way the competition is run too. I've only entered a couple times and never expect to win but its fun to try. Might surprise myself some day! Keep up the good work, Peter.

Thank you for your support Mary.


I'd be interested to know what other members think about what is fair and what's not.

We won't be changing the system for everyone to please one member. Coathanger, if you can't get over getting 1 star rating then perhaps competitions are not for you. It's life. You can't always win and your photos won't appeal to 100% of audience all the time. Your comments have been taken on board but so far you're only one who disagreed.

No system can be perfect and people will always try to find holes in it and bypass the rules. In our view the star system is far better, for two main reasons:
- you have the ability to browse the photos and instantly rate them unlike in poll where you can only see the thumbnail or the user name, not the photo in full resolution and EXIF. "See and vote at the same time" is simpler, and faster.
- more rating options is more accurate than "vote or no vote" in polls

Thank you

[coffee]

Thank you for your support Mary.


I'd be interested to know what other members think about what is fair and what's not.

We won't be changing the system for everyone to please one member. Coathanger, if you can't get over getting 1 star rating then perhaps competitions are not for you. It's life. You can't always win and your photos won't appeal to 100% of audience all the time. Your comments have been taken on board but so far you're only one who disagreed.

No system can be perfect and people will always try to find holes in it and bypass the rules. In our view the star system is far better, for two main reasons:
- you have the ability to browse the photos and instantly rate them unlike in poll where you can only see the thumbnail or the user name, not the photo in full resolution and EXIF. "See and vote at the same time" is simpler, and faster.
- more rating options is more accurate than "vote or no vote" in polls

Thank you

I think your explanation Peter, is well thought out and well explained. I hope this doesn't shut the door to suggestions for the future, but I can understand the reason to bring this to rest right now.

Well done.

[coffee]

I'm happy with the way the competition is run too. I've only entered a couple times and never expect to win but its fun to try. Might surprise myself some day! Keep up the good work, Peter.

I can't imagine keeping a site like this up and running. Peter is amazing isn't he?

[LensBaby]

Peter as I said a few posts earlier...I love the competitions, and I want you to keep them. I think you have done a wonderful job!

[coathanger007]

It's obvious I can't win here. Admin's fan base is too strong :D

But I can still try to reason out with everyone else :)

It's not possible for a photo to be voted 1 star if 15 other votes have rated it 5 stars. Anyone with any photographic abilities can see that nothing justifies a 1 star rating for that photo. A 1 star rating is so devastating that not even 50 more 5 star ratings is enough to recover the loss. Also, you can see the malicious intent when the guilty party rates all his photos 5/5 at the same time he rates mine 1/5.

What is the object of a competition? Winning. If you just wanted to post your photo for others to enjoy as well as to enjoy photos from other members then just post it in the gallery. There is no need for a competition.

No system is perfect but the star rating system is highly imperfect compared to the poll system. There is no room in a poll system for people to discredit photos. You simply vote for the winner. If there's something you think can be improved in a photo then add it to the comments.

Secondly, ratings are relative. By what standard are you rating photos? You can't just rate one photo. You need to rate the entire gallery. If you just voted 5 stars for my photo and don't rate other photos in the gallery then you are essentially voting 0/5 stars for every other photo.

Thirdly, you need to quantify the number of votes. If a photo had nine 5 star ratings and one 4 star rating. It would lose to a photo with a single 5 star rating (prolly from the photographer him/herself).

Polls have clickable thumbnails. You're willing to accept the inaccuracies of a star rating system for a single click? Also, you can't view the full resolution picture with EXIF in the photo gallery. You still have to navigate to to the POTM gallery them click each individual thumbnail. So in fact, it takes more clicks :D

[coffee]

Listen Coat, you aren't alone in your concerns. Do a search on my posts and you will see I brought up the exact same concerns a few months ago. It wasn't well recieved either by some members. There were words like "nit picking", "don't participate if you don't like it", things of that nature. I would never use those words myself, I'm not that abrasive. But in the end, I voiced my concerns, we talked about it, and that was that.

Nothing changed mind you, but things take time, a lot of thought, and sometimes money if there is to be a re-design of the web site and/or contest. You are always going to be at the mercy of the contest format, and the voting public. Take the good with the bad.

[admin]

Coffee, the huge difference between the two of you is, that you were opposed the poll when you expressed your concerns. We are now back to the format we had when you had liked it, while Coathanger wants his poll back.

I wouldn't like this discussion turned into a flame war between poll and a star system. The feedback corner is something like brainstorming, where we listen to our members questions and suggestions so that we can keep improving the forum.

To get things into perspective regarding the star rating and why it's far more accurate than poll:

The decision on the winner is not the number of stars nor the average rating on its own. It's the combination of the votes and rating.

Example:

Photo A has 2 votes, rating 5 stars average. 2 x 5 = 10 points
Photo B has 10 votes, rating 4 stars average 10 x 4 = 40 points

Although photo A has 5 stars and average rating 5, it did not get enough votes to win over photo B. Voting 1 star for the photo B does little to change its leading position in this case. In other terms, if a particular photo is a strong leader, the combination of votes and average rating will be quite high. A few 1 star votes would not bring it down from number one. There would have to be another strong photo to compete with.

[coffee]

Ya, I know we see differently on the poll thing, but I was talking about when I posted a few question way before the poll idea asking how the star system worked, with the same concerns coat ws talking about. You were good enough to explain it to me.

[coathanger007]

Ooohhhh...why didn't you say so earlier admin? :D Well, that solves one of the star rating's probs :)

[admin]

Ooohhhh...why didn't you say so earlier admin? :D Well, that solves one of the poll's probs :)

You never asked did you? :D You went straight into how bad the star system was. So there you go. Your photo is a strong leader at the moment.

[shayebryd]

There is no evidence it was steppenwolf. So please no accusations. Rating is anonymous. We are all good people here playing by the rules. Your concerns and suggestions are welcome and appreciated.

Speaking about fairness I'd also like to point out that enticing members of other forums to vote for your photos here is not exactly what I call fair: http://www.gfxforum.net/showpost.php?p=14486&postcount=5
so please stay away from it or your photos could be disqualified.

****WARNING****
I have Avast virus scanner and when I went to the link you provided and clicked on his 2 links listed my Avast stated there was a Trojan virus. So please be aware and the owner of the site might want to check into it. Just an FYI......maybe it's just my program picking something up I am not sure!

[coathanger007]

Did you click on the google adverts? Google should not be serving up malware.

[shayebryd]

No.....I clicked on these links posted from this site.....
***WARNING*** don't click on link below......see above post please.

"Hmm....historic...here's one of a war memorial
http://www.heavenlyglimpses.com/disp...?album=8&pos=4
and port arthur prison ruins (there's quite a story behind it)
http://www.heavenlyglimpses.com/disp...album=9&pos=57"
__________________

[coathanger007]

Those links don't exist as part of the URL has been replaced by "..."

I think you're referring to:
http://www.heavenlyglimpses.com/displayimage.php?album=8&pos=4
http://www.heavenlyglimpses.com/displayimage.php?album=topn&cat=-9&pos=12

I use Eset NOD32 which is even more accurate than Avast and it picked up nothing.
Please see this comparison:
http://www.nod32.com.au/compare/compare_vb100.html