B&W Conversion

[jonrayner]

Been away for a while so have not been keeping up with the forum, so apologies if this has been discussed already.

Does anyone have any suggestions/ tips for converting photos to black & White. I am sure it is not just a case for desaturation. Is there a tried and tested workflow method that anyone use?

Many thanks in advance

Jon

[dkippen]

What software do you use? I use PS and have a couple of actions that I've used.

[jonrayner]

I have Photoshop Elements 6.

[ladyups]

Hi Jon, if I can find the link, I'll post it but this is the best way I've found and really like the looks after the conversion. This is with CS2, not sure if it will work in Elements or not. Do not just desaturate your images, go to the channels mixer under images, adjustments and click on monochrome...then play around with the red/green/blue sliders. You should keep it at 100% but can go up or down with any of the colors. Like you could set the red at 110%, the green at 0% and the blue at -10%. He states to not go below -10 for some reason that I can't remember right now but you get the idea. Hope this helps.

[jonrayner]

I take it the channel mixers are full blown photoshop only as i cannot seem to find them in elements. I am sure that there is a way of doing it, just labelled differently!! Thank you for the advise though, I am going to give it a go.

[jonrayner]

Hi Jon, if I can find the link, I'll post it but this is the best way I've found and really like the looks after the conversion. This is with CS2, not sure if it will work in Elements or not. Do not just desaturate your images, go to the channels mixer under images, adjustments and click on monochrome...then play around with the red/green/blue sliders. You should keep it at 100% but can go up or down with any of the colors. Like you could set the red at 110%, the green at 0% and the blue at -10%. He states to not go below -10 for some reason that I can't remember right now but you get the idea. Hope this helps.

When you change the sliders for each colour, what is it actually changing; I have found how to change each channel (Red, Yellow, Green, Cyan, Blue, Magenta), but under each channel, I can then change the Hue, the Saturation and the Lightness. It is starting to look complicated!

[ladyups]

Sorry, took a break to the front porch to soak up some of the beautiful sunshine we are having today.

I'm not sure about Elements cause in PS we only have the three sliders. Once you click on the monochrome button in the lower left corner, it changes to gray scale. The colors are the colors in your image. Blue using the sky, green the grass, red is everything else? Anyway, usually red is the prominent color (I think). You should see it change on your image as you adjust the sliders. As soon as I click on the monochrome button, my image changes to gray scale and as I move the sliders, I can see it change on my image.
Maybe someone here will know how to do it in Elements.

[ladyups]

Hey Jon,

Here's the link...not exactly the one I learned from but basically the same idea.

http://digital-photography-school.com/digital-black-and-white

[jonrayner]

thanks for that Mary, I appreciate it. I have printed it out and will give it a read

[jonrayner]

Yeah, I found the 3 sliders within Elements, it was under the simplest of menus.... "Convert to black and white". I was looking everywhere else but there! It's always in the last place you look and then once found, it's the most obvious place!

I have tried a B&W conversion - after some critique as I am not sure what I should be looking for!

[ladyups]

Oh, glad you found it. As to this image...I like the composition really well but I think your conversion makes it look flat. In the little thumbnail, it looks good but once I opened it up, it lacks contrast. It's like its too grayscale...there isn't enough tonal range. Does that make sense? I think I would like it better if there was a bit more black in it.

[ladyups]

Hey Jon, found another link for you on channel mixing for B/W images.

http://photodoto.com/channel-mixer-recipes/

[jonrayner]

Thanks again Mary, it is a good article. I am going have to play around again. I think I have mental block on the B&W process, I just don't seem to get it! Practice make perfect, as they say!

[jonrayner]

Right then, based on the second article that Mary posted, I followed the settings in the example, i.e. R=100, G=-30, B=0 and I boosted the contrast slightly. I can now see a big difference from the first one and understand when you say it is a bit flat. However, not sure if I have boosted too much, but there seems to be more noise in the second shot. is that normal?

[jonrayner]

Oops..... Meant to include both images side by side so comparison was easier!

[coffee]

Don't know what your process was for conversion, but I like the first in your example better myself. I ran both through PS and even though the second may have better tones histogram wise, the second also has a lot of noise introduced into it to the extent it takes away from the image.

I also like the different shades of darks and lights in the background of the first. In the second image, there is a dominance of dark tones that makes the picture look more flat to me. This would be similar to taking a portrait of someone with a complete black background. There would be no depth in the shot. And even though the second image isn't completly black, I don't think it there is enough light tones in it.

Also the second seems to look harsher overall and loses that softness the first has. I like that iin this shot.

And if you jump back and forth between the two, you will see that there is some detail lost in the pedals of the second image which I wouldn't want to give up. You are losing details iin the highlights.

If I had to choose which version I like best of the two as they stand, it would be the first. Just my opinion.

[ladyups]

Well, Jon, I for one, like the second try better. It makes the flower stand out more, making it the center of attention. I'm a fond lover of old time B/W photography and that noise just says grain to me. I'm picking the second try as my fav.

[jonrayner]

OK, I have had another go, again another one from the garden, see what you think and whether I am missing the point with B&W......

[ladyups]

Nope, you aren't missing the point at all. I like this one, especially in the B/W...the water drops give it just the right amount of light. I like! I think this would be pretty framed in a black frame with a white mat. I'm reading a book on B/W photography (which is my love and I still can't get it right) and one of the things he stresses is to not let any blown out white be near the edge of the photo. It will drive the eyes right off the frame. According to him, the light is what draws the eyes in a B/W and to use it like you would lines in a color image. So the only thing on this image that I see as distracting is the white on the top left corner. But, a little bit of cropping would eliminate this.

[jonrayner]

Thanks Mary, I see what you mean about the distraction I the top left; I left it in as I was trying to keep the whole of the two leaves in shot while keeping the original photo's ratio dimensions. When you say a White mat, do you mean a mount?

[ladyups]

Humm...could be...we call them mats over here. You might call them mounts.

[ladyups]

Just an idea...I played around with it a bit...and the outcome wasn't too bad. Ever since Joseph talked about the patch tool in Photoshop, I've been intrigued by it. If my old memory serves me correctly, you don't have PS but you have PSE and I'm not sure if the patch tool is there or not. Anyway, I used the patch tool to fix the white spot in the left corner of your image. If you have it in PSE, you might try it and then you wouldn't lose any aspect ratio of your image. I really like this image, Jon....those water droplets just set it off in a B/W image.

[jonrayner]

Humm...could be...we call them mats over here. You might call them mounts.

Is it the cardboard frame that surrounds the picture within the frame?

[jonrayner]

Just an idea...I played around with it a bit...and the outcome wasn't too bad. Ever since Joseph talked about the patch tool in Photoshop, I've been intrigued by it. If my old memory serves me correctly, you don't have PS but you have PSE and I'm not sure if the patch tool is there or not. Anyway, I used the patch tool to fix the white spot in the left corner of your image. If you have it in PSE, you might try it and then you wouldn't lose any aspect ratio of your image. I really like this image, Jon....those water droplets just set it off in a B/W image.

When I am back at home I will have a look for the patch tool. I am getting used to this, along with Peter you seem to be my personal tutor! I hope you don't send me an invoice anytime soon!!

[ladyups]

Is it the cardboard frame that surrounds the picture within the frame?


yes, that would be 'our' mat and 'your' mount. :)

[ladyups]

When I am back at home I will have a look for the patch tool. I am getting used to this, along with Peter you seem to be my personal tutor! I hope you don't send me an invoice anytime soon!!


Well, darnit Jon, you know I've been out of work for about 2 months...got to make a living somehow! :)

I'd never even tried the patch tool if Joseph hadn't mentioned it. So, I had to check it out and see how it works. Pretty cool tool, I think!