Getting some shots together for lesson 5

[mj702002]

Hi, I am getting some shots together for Lesson 5 and would love any and all input, if I am heading in the right direction....anything! For lesson 5 we need to send in 3-5 shots:1. Rule of Thirds 2. Leading Lines 3. Composition Rule of Choice (rhythem, diagonals, contrast, or geometric). I numbered the shots according to the 1,2,3 for the lesson.
This is what I have so far:

1. http://www.proudphotography.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=196&pictureid=1228
Does this one need to be cropped a bit on the bottom if it would work?


1b. http://www.proudphotography.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=196&pictureid=1229


2. http://www.proudphotography.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=196&pictureid=1232
I have cropped this one a little already.


3. (contrast?) http://www.proudphotography.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=196&pictureid=1231

3b. (geometric?) http://www.proudphotography.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=196&pictureid=1234

3c. (geometric?) http://www.proudphotography.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=196&pictureid=1230

Thanks!

[vman]

Here are my thoughts. They are worth what you paid for them :)

1. That shot doesn't work for me. I think it is because of the distance from the horse. It is positioned well, but its just too small to be the focal point. Also, that line across the middle of the pcture (where the grass ends and the trees start) is distracting to my eye.

1b. My eye doesn't like this for the opposite reason - too close. Without more to the right of the horse it looks like an off-center attempt at a centered shot :)

2. I LIKE that one. The trail is a great leading edge back to the dog. You get the feeling that dog is about to jump right out of the shot.

3. It may be my screen, but the lighting on this one doesn't seem right. The same pic at a diffrent time of day might be better.

3b. Cool concept. Might be better if the eyes were parallel, but I know how it is trying to get the zebra to pose just right :)

3c. Good shot. Maybe some fill flash might have helped? I dunno. I love the composition.

I am a true rookie. So, don't pay too much attention to anything I say.

[mj702002]

OK...How about this for ROT (let me know about the rocks in the upper right hand corner--if they are "in the way"...if I crop it the dog will be to far over- at least I think she will)
http://www.proudphotography.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=196&pictureid=1258

and this for geometric
http://www.proudphotography.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=196&pictureid=1256

I did try to "straighten" the zebra, being that I can't get that shot again, I think I like the origanal version better, but here is the straightened version:
http://www.proudphotography.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=196&pictureid=1255

The trees for contrast in the op - the sun was behind the larger one, which has to be why it has that look.

Thanks

[Pat]

Hi mj. I'll have a crack at this, though I haven't taken the course and don't really know their requirements. So anyone else, feel free to correct or expand upon my observations.
OK, No.1a,,,Rule of Thirds.., the small horse. This was this close to being a terrific photograph. The horse could have been slightly larger in the frame and positioned a little lower or higher, perhaps) so as not to have the head intersect with the treeline (or have that tree growing out of it's head). Also the treeline itself could have been lower (this being a rule of thirds exercise the treeline should have been one third up from the bottom of the frame). It seems as thought the treeline and trees are not level and perpendicular to the frame.
1b...I think here the horse is to large in the frame. The major horizontal line of the foreground hill should be up 1/3 from the bottom of frame. I would try to avoid chopping off the horse's legs.
2..Leading lines. This is a particularly good pic in my opinion (strong leading line in the path) barring a slight lack of contrast to help differentiate the dog and the unfortunate pole or limb apparently whacking him on the head.
3...Contrast. I like this shot of the trees, but while it does contain some contrast in greens, it lacks contrast in tonality, appearing to be slightly washed out. Needs a bit more contrast and maybe a little saturation boost and sharpening.
3b...geometric..Again, being not sure of the requirements to fulfill in this category, I can only say that I really like this pic. I don't think it needs straightening, I think the slight angle lends character, Maybe just a little brighter.
3c...geometric..I really like this photo. Whether it fills the geometric requirement I don't know. I see geometry. I also see a wonderful portrait. I downloaded it and cropped it at the shade line on the big pole, just below the young fella's lower foot and found it balanced a little better in my eye. You might want to try it for yourself, see how you like it. Other than that, this one's a beauty.
The dog in the water..I'd crop the rocks out. You're still in rule of thirds territory and it cleans it up nicely.
The flowers = geometry. I don't see it. Geometry is about lines and angles.
I liked the original Zebra.
I hope this helps, mj. You've got some excellent foundational shots here, that with some tweaking here and there should go into your portfolio for presentation to National Geographic. :)
Good luck.

[mj702002]

Thanks Pat...about the flowers= geometry...where I got that from was in the reading for the lesson:
"Geometric Composition: Diagonals, Circle, and Rhythm"

The other thing...about the rule of thirds...the way I am understanding it, it can be either using the, for ex. the lower 1/3 for a horizon OR placing your subject on one of the intersections ...with that, I have been shooting for the second option- I have the intersection going through the "heart" of both horses....Is that not right?

In the tree one, I was looking at they are very different size; one is light, one dark; leaves short/long

I didn't even notice that branch looking like it is on the dogs head! I will have to have a look and see if I have any others.

Thanks Again!!

[coffee]

I like these images MJ. Keep in mind I'm looking at these with my laptop, and even though the screen is color balanced, it's a little different from my main computer when it comes to lights and darks.

I think the horse (first image) for the ROT is a very nice image and I feel it completes the task at hand. And I think it's very interesting to see the horse looking out over the prairie. I think it's very fitting. From what I see on this computer, it lacks a little in technical contrast and saturation. It's just a little dull on color. But again, I think it's a very nice ROT image. I like the second horse shot, and it's has better color and contrast, but I think it lack in overall balance and ROT composition.

I also like the dog running with the stick. Path has good leading lines and also presents a good ROT. It looks a little dark on this screen. I'm wondering if the exposure levels are correct.

The contrast image of the trees looks off on exposure and technical contrast. As far as contrast composition and subject, I feel the differences in the trees don't stand out enough to really qualify as a contrast in composition and subject. When I first looked at it I didn't know how it fit with the assignment. But after you explained it I understand, but again, unless you know what you were going for, it's really hard to connect it. And considering the technical aspect, I don't know if I would go for a different contrast composition.

The geometry of the zebra is very interesting and original, and like it, but again it looks dark. I just ran the zebra through PS and according to the histogram, it is indeed underexposed by a stop or so. There is absolutely no information on the right side of the histogram, meaning there are no true highlights at all. I played with it a little by upping the exposure, and adding a touch of contrast. It help make the image pop, and brought out the eyes some. But again I like it as to the assignment at hand, and think it very original.

I think you are on the right track here, and like these shots and think you have a trio that will work, but remember that after you decide on an image that completes the assignment requirements, you go back and make sure the images are also technically correct. I've thought all along when doing the course that even though you complete the assignment with an appropriate image, points can be taken off if you don't apply good technical structure to the images. If you've already done the exposure part of the course, make sure you apply it to all your images you turn in. If they didn't get exposed correctly in camera, use a program that can make some small adjustments to get it technically correct as possible.

This next part is just a general thought, and has nothing to do with your images posted here. As with all assignments, I asked Peter once if I could use an image I used for a different assignment, for the new assignment. He told the would like to see different images for different assignments. This makes sense. He also told me to take the time needed to be so happy with an image for an assignment, that I couldn't wait to turn it in. Why do I mention this? It's because unless you are 100% satisfied with an image to turn in, keep at it until you KNOW this is the very best you can do. This will not only get you a better grade, but also give you more practice, with more learning as you do. Most of the time, I've found that I learn more by practicing and making mistakes, then I can by reading how to make things better.

[mj702002]

Joseph - thank you so much for your detailed reply!

I really need to learn more about how to read a histogram! I usually check my shots and if I see a mountain sort of shape on the histogram, I figure it is OK or pretty close)...but I know there is more to it!

I do really like the dog running towards me for leading lines...now that particular area of the river is very hard for me to shoot...it has taken me literally hundreds of shots to get pictures to not turn out black or very dark, I guess because of all the trees and the shade. I try not to use the flash - the only flash I have anyways is what is on the camera- which from what I have read wouldn't help in that sort of situation anyways. I have already added some light to it.

I am glad you think the zebra fits into that catagory- I love it! Not sure how the weather plays into you saying about no highlights...that day was cloudy and rainy...could that have affected it?

And, my horse- who I think up close is not very photogenic--but I do like this shot of him. Generally out in the field he has his head down stuffing his mouth with grass (actually if you can zoom in on him, he does have a mouthful of grass :D).

Joseph - you didn't mention anything about the shot of the flowers.

The three shots I like best that meet the criteria of what needs to be sent in...I can send in up to 5 total. I touched them up a little bit...let me know what you think. Unfortunately I know very little about Photoshop- decided to learn my camera instead of that program, so I am limited in what I can do there.

rot: http://www.proudphotography.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=196&pictureid=1287

LL: http://www.proudphotography.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=196&pictureid=1286

geometric:http://www.proudphotography.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=196&pictureid=1288

[coffee]

You are certainly very welcome MJ. I like helping out because this forum has given me so much help in the past.
I will try and reply to all you ask.

First of all, as much as we all try to get all of our shots perfectly right in camera, the reality of it is we can't always if ever get it perfect. That's why adobe PS and other programs are so popular for the beginner and professional. As you make your way through the course and learn more about photography, you will at some point come to the realization that most, if not all of your photos can be improved in an editing program if you take the time to learn one. I for one, spent the entire winter months, here in MN that's about 10, hehe, learning what PS can do, and really working on what I think has turned out to be a wonderful workflow that I send all of my best images through, and get them how I want them. I also shoot in RAW only so I have more flexibility in correcting white balance and other edited that aren't possible with a jpg image. With that said, I think it is well worth, while you proceed through the PP course, to integrate learning how to use an editing program of your choice, and creating a workflow that works for your images. I spent almost 4 months off and on researching workflows alone, and took from many different suggested workflows and combined them with specific ideas and created my own. Most of the time you will never get an image out of the camera the way you want it perfectly. Pro photographers use it as nausea because they know they can make things better in PS. Get things as close as perfect in camera, then use an editing program to clean things up, and even add creative ideas, to create something completely different.

While we are talking about editing your images, I would like to spell out in a very elementary way I go about my workflow. This is in no way all there is, because there is much more to it in setting up each layer to accept the edit. But in a nutshell, this is my editing workflow. There is more pre-prep in deleting what I don't like, organizing them by subject, renaming each subject in batch, etc.

Keep in mind that I edit my images to sell on stock photography sites where they are very picky about such things as noise, sharpness, composition and so on, so this editing workflow tries to address all the technical aspects of an image.

I first send a RAW image to Camera RAW where all I really do is make sure the histogram is technically correct. This may include increasing the exposure, or decreasing it. It may also include adjusting the fill light, and getting rid of blown-out highlight. After that I sent the image to PS. In PS I first see if there is noise to reduce. If there is I first reduce the noise with a Noise Ninja plug-in, and add a touch of sharpening a RAW image will lack. If there is still too much noise present to sell as stock photography, I then use the noise reduction in PS to rid a little more. I then clone and heal. With clone and heal, I attempt to take out of the image that that shouldn't be there, and/or fix blemishes that are distracting and ugly. This includes taking out dust spots, sensor dust spots, and distracting things. After that I dodge and burn. With this I paint with a PS brush lights and shadows that may be lacking to give items in an image more depth if it needs it, making things stand out more like an eye in a portrait for instance. This isn’t necessary for most images, but necessary for others. After that, I add what I call the big three. This is correcting levels, contrast, and saturation. With levels, I fine tune the histogram that I corrected in adobe camera raw. I then adjust contrast and saturation as needed. I then either add sharpening to the overall image, or add selective sharpening part of the image. The entire process can take from 15 minutes per image, to hours.

I know this is probably more than you wanted to know, but truly feel to get the most out of your images, some post processing is necessary with most images. Whether it’s adjusting the exposure some, cropping, or just adding your own creative touch to it.

Back to your questions. Keep in mind these are just my opinions, others may not look at things like I do. I personally like the wider pan of the horse instead of the cropped one. The reason is with this image, the horse is looking out over its prairie or environment. It puts things in perspective that the horse is only a small part of its surroundings, and the wider angle shows this. This is how I interpret the shot anyway. I still think it lacks in technical contrast, it seems a bit washed out, but I like it overall.

The dog running shot I would agree with Pat in that it should be cropped to take out some of the foreground rocks. It seems a little unbalanced overall, and some cropping can still insure the ROT’s.

I like what you did to the Zebra. It looks like you went back to the composition not being so perfectly straight. I happen to like things a little offset, so it’s more interesting to my eye. I love the way the eye’s have been brought out. You could barely see them before in the shadows. They are brown! When I say it had no highlight, I’m not taking about the weather or whether the sun was out, but how bright light parts of the image is. Even in a cloudy situation you can get the highlights to be correct if your camera setting are set correctly. I find that in a cloudy situation, or in shadows, I have to up the exposure composition some to make the highlights and overall exposure correct. The only thing I see lacking now is a little sharpening, but I love what you did here. Wonderful.

Going back to the flower shot, I certainly see a composition of pattern here, but is it interesting? Not really to tell the truth. What could have been done here to make it more interesting and still keep that composition integrity would be to try a different angle at this. Come in from behind the flowers perhaps. Take the image lying on your back looking up to the sky. Or take the shot from behind so the green leaves are in the foreground, but the peddles are still in focus. I just feel this straight on shot doesn’t have the interest needed for a stand out composition.

I hope some of this is of help.

[mj702002]

Joseph - WOW...yes for now that is a lot to take in! I got both- my first dslr and the photoshop program at the same time, for me and my time available learning both at the same time was overwhelming, so that is why I decided to figure out the camera and how to use that first. Although every time I "tinker" around with the Photoshop program I learn a little bit more about it.

OK, back to my horse for the rot...the shot you didn't care for where I cropped off some on the right I was looking at the tree branches hanging down--there is one that hangs down farther and I had thought that would make a good "end" for that side of the shot.

So, I went back and grabbed the original and used that program thing posted in another thread "the composition rule visualizer" and cropped some off of the bottom. What I was looking at was where the field and tree line come together to form that line across the middle of the shot...Cropping the bottom -that line falls on the lower 1/3 horizontal line (as best as it can for being slightly hilly) and the horse falls on the left verticle line at an intersecting point. So I am getting both aspects of the rot...right? Tell me what you think!

http://www.proudphotography.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=196&pictureid=1302

I also think I am going to leave out the rot with the dog, as I already have that dog for LL.

[coffee]

Joseph - WOW...yes for now that is a lot to take in! I got both- my first dslr and the photoshop program at the same time, for me and my time available learning both at the same time was overwhelming, so that is why I decided to figure out the camera and how to use that first. Although every time I "tinker" around with the Photoshop program I learn a little bit more about it.

OK, back to my horse for the rot...the shot you didn't care for where I cropped off some on the right I was looking at the tree branches hanging down--there is one that hangs down farther and I had thought that would make a good "end" for that side of the shot.

So, I went back and grabbed the original and used that program thing posted in another thread "the composition rule visualizer" and cropped some off of the bottom. What I was looking at was where the field and tree line come together to form that line across the middle of the shot...Cropping the bottom -that line falls on the lower 1/3 horizontal line (as best as it can for being slightly hilly) and the horse falls on the left verticle line at an intersecting point. So I am getting both aspects of the rot...right? Tell me what you think!

http://www.proudphotography.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=196&pictureid=1302



I also think I am going to leave out the rot with the dog, as I already have that dog for LL.

I still like the very first version of this image that is no longer showing up on the first post of this thread. I think the image dimensions better and the composition. This very latest version also have an red hue to it that doesn't look quite right.

First image cropped
http://www.proudphotography.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=196&pictureid=1287

New image wide format with orange or red hue.
http://www.proudphotography.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=196&pictureid=1302

[mj702002]

Joseph...this where I have an obvious lack of knowledge and orginization! But, I have learned something...add notes when I make changes and make a copy before I make changes. :o
I don't know why, other than in trying different things with that shot, I had a zillion variations of it and deleted some...and the one you liked is one that was deleted. :(

So here is the cropped one you like with my attempt this morning at editing the original. (the orig. does have that reddish/orangy cast or color to it)
http://www.proudphotography.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=196&pictureid=1287

http://www.proudphotography.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=196&pictureid=1311

[coffee]

Joseph...this where I have an obvious lack of knowledge and orginization! But, I have learned something...add notes when I make changes and make a copy before I make changes. :o
I don't know why, other than in trying different things with that shot, I had a zillion variations of it and deleted some...and the one you liked is one that was deleted. :(

So here is the cropped one you like with my attempt this morning at editing the original. (the orig. does have that reddish/orangy cast or color to it)
http://www.proudphotography.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=196&pictureid=1287

http://www.proudphotography.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=196&pictureid=1311

Ya these are nice. Not sure which on of these you edited, but it looks to me like the top one of the two has a touch more contrast.It also looks a little sharper, but could be the crop, not sure.

Ya keeping things organized is a tough task. It took me quite a while to get a good renaming and organization method down. I shoot in RAW, So every image is saved un-touched in RAW. I also save a copy of my edited images in PS format with all the changes in it's own layer. I also save the best as a large and small jpg. So my very best images I have 4 files of the same shot, and if I like different crops of the image, I can have up to 6 or so files of the same shot. Sure takes up an awful lot of space this way that's for sure. But I find that saving an un-touched RAW version for safety, and a PS file for all the edits, a good combination. I've found myself going back to a PS file I've already done, and retouching some aspect of it I found I needed later. Comes in handy at times.

[mj702002]

Thank You Joseph...both were edited